Raritan 911: Robocop

sptimmy43

Well-Known Member
This is interesting. Full disclosure: my father and grandfather were both cops. I am not one and I have no training whatsoever. I am not perfect and I have been pulled over before. I have never been beaten by a cop. In fact, my experiences with police have never been anything other than pleasant, aside from actually being handed a speeding ticket.

I think force is absolutely justified for disobeying a police order. We as a society employ police to keep order and to protect the way of life we expect. Some people have ill intentions and we expect the police to deal with those people. Those people may be willing to take a life to carry on with whatever they are doing.

If I am a cop and I stop a car and the people aren't acting reasonably I would be wondering why. What are they trying to hide? Is this guy going to try and take my gun and shoot me with it? Why is he interfering in a simple traffic stop? If it's me I am not taking the chance and I would take action to control the situation. As was already stated, this guy had 7 chances to obey. That's 6 more than he deserved.

It's a slippery slope. Which police commands matter and which ones don't? Which ones do we need to obey before it's stick time? To what level do we let society crumble before it's time for action? Let's face it, the police are powerless unless they have the ability to use force when people are not acting in a way that society has deemed to be acceptable. To me it's no different if you disobey a fairly simple order or are straight up running from the police. If you don't comply, you will be made to comply. Period.
 

kdebello

Well-Known Member
An officer pulls someone over. Another person, not from that traffic stop, crosses the street, yelling and not listening. The officer is now outnumbered, with no idea of what weapons either person can be holding, or have in the car, or what their intentions may be. Situation is escalating, and it's his responsibility to get it under control. After 7 warnings, (should have been much less IMO), you're going to be detained. Resisting is going to get you arrested.

The man had a chance to walk away. He could have made his phone call from his car as he was given plenty of chances to do. If anything, there was excessive force on the part of the guy, who had total control of how this was going to play out.
 

Carson

Sport Bacon
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I appreciate everyone's opinions on the matter and I am reading everything posted. I realize it's a controversial topic and the video isn't exactly pretty. Sometimes my job isn't pretty and there's no "clean" solution to what I'm presented. I've accepted that in my 21 years in law enforcement. Not everyone understands... I've accepted that too.

I have chosen not to comment on the incident, specifically, or to discuss Use of Force Guidelines in New Jersey here. The fact that attorneys and judges can't agree on proper Use of Force Guidelines should tell you there are no easy answers. And every situation is different and evaluated as such.

I will say, factually:

I didn't use pepper spray, taser, or baton. Nothing. Only physical force... my hands and body...was used to make the arrest.

The video was reviewed by the Hunterdon County Prosecutor's Office and screened with an Assistant Prosecutor for criminal charges and violations of Use of Force Guidelines. I was not charged with any criminal offense and the AP concluded my conduct was in compliance with Use of Force Guidelines.

The video was reviewed by my Administration for violations of Departmental Policy. I was cleared in the Internal Affairs investigation and found to be in compliance with policy (which essentially mirrors the Use of Force Guidelines).

That's all I'm saying about it!!
 

serviceguy

Well-Known Member
My Law enforcement experience was limited to 1 year (it was mandatory to serve for a year back then in Italy and I chose the family business as on my father's side all males were either in law enforcement or the military) so I am no expert but one thing that most 'civilians' miss is that the officer has no way to determine the intentions of the non compliant (or even compliant actually) person that is facing at the moment. The just annoying may quickly turn deadly pulling a knife, a gun or whatever...as I replied to an outraged woman asking me why I was (I guess not enough discretely) pointing my gun at her while my fellow officer was inspecting her husband documents due to his erratic driving: "you know who I am but I don't know who you are". As one of my instructors officer put it quite eloquently "better a bad trial than a beautiful funeral", and if that sounds outrageous you should reconsider how much you value your own life and how willing you are to let it depend on the decision of the next guy. Goes without saying the a Police officer
I appreciate everyone's opinions on the matter and I am reading everything posted. I realize it's a controversial topic and the video isn't exactly pretty. Sometimes my job isn't pretty and there's no "clean" solution to what I'm presented. I've accepted that in my 21 years in law enforcement. Not everyone understands... I've accepted that too.

I have chosen not to comment on the incident, specifically, or to discuss Use of Force Guidelines in New Jersey here. The fact that attorneys and judges can't agree on proper Use of Force Guidelines should tell you there are no easy answers. And every situation is different and evaluated as such.

I will say, factually:

I didn't use pepper spray, taser, or baton. Nothing. Only physical force... my hands and body...was used to make the arrest.

The video was reviewed by the Hunterdon County Prosecutor's Office and screened with an Assistant Prosecutor for criminal charges and violations of Use of Force Guidelines. I was not charged with any criminal offense and the AP concluded my conduct was in compliance with Use of Force Guidelines.

The video was reviewed by my Administration for violations of Departmental Policy. I was cleared in the Internal Affairs investigation and found to be in compliance with policy (which essentially mirrors the Use of Force Guidelines).

That's all I'm saying about it!!
I know that this happens all the time, but it's always confusing to me how a 200K award could be granted based on facts that were clearly not in violation of any law as certified by the appropriate authorities. Definitely not setting a good precedent.

I mean, based on that principle how much would you get for being smacked on the back of the head while acting as an ass?
 

rlb

Well-Known Member
I know that this happens all the time, but it's always confusing to me how a 200K award could be granted based on facts that were clearly not in violation of any law as certified by the appropriate authorities. Definitely not setting a good precedent.
I'm guessing the Twp. determined it would cost about 200k to defend the case. On the off chance they lose, they're also out for the damages. So this is the quickest and easiest way out for all involved. Purely a civil matter at that point.
 

Carson

Sport Bacon
Team MTBNJ Halter's
The initial lawsuit was filed in federal court for $1.5M. Township initially denied a counteroffer and wanted it scheduled for trial, then offered $50,000. After some back and forth, $200,000 was agreed upon.

Like many municipalities, Raritan Township is in joint insurance fund in order to reduce their rates. So the Township and the JIF have a say in the settlement since they both are writing the checks.
 
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stb222

Love Drunk
Jerk Squad
What the video doesn’t show is that the guy who had his ass whooped had earlier approached @Carson, while he was eating a nice dinner, and allegedly asked him a “dumb” question. Allegedly the guy actually realized that Carson was on his break and left him alone. This guy then allegedly followed Carson in attempt to ask him the question. Allegedly the first time Carson stopped, was for this traffic stop.

I played the video a few times and I think you can hear Carson say “you interrupted my dinner. It is faint, but there.
 

fidodie

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Speaking of police work, I'll see my cousin this weekend - ex mt lakes officer. retired sarasota, fla.
Her husband also recently retired from sarasota pd. he is in a band now.....
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I don’t have much to add other than to say I’ve known Carson for a number of years and I’m pretty damn confident the guy in the video was probably given more rope than the vast majority of police officers in the country would have given him. I can only imagine what happens to guys like this who try this stunt in Texas.

My philosophy is this. If someone with a gun tells me to do something, I do it.
 

mattybfat

The White Shadow
Team MTBNJ Halter's
In your view, when is force permissible and how do you determine the appropriate level of force?
America has a rule of law period.
If you or your family FU then shut up and obey. Problem is that everyone now has an opinion of the law and expects to be able to Express it.
That douche who posted that video screams what's wrong with this country looking at you NJ, Cali metro, NY city and every weak leaning do nothing but complaining watchung mountain peeps.
 

jShort

El gran perdedor
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I just saw the other stuff.

Even if I had never met Carson, I would say the cop in the video acted as he should. You don't interrupt a traffic stop if you are not a part of it. That's just idiotic. Wait until it's over, and if you take issue, file a report.

I can't believe the county settled and that Moron got 200k. All that does it motivate more people to instigate cops into a similar situation.
 

stb222

Love Drunk
Jerk Squad
I just saw the other stuff.

Even if I had never met Carson, I would say the cop in the video acted as he should. You don't interrupt a traffic stop if you are not a part of it. That's just idiotic. Wait until it's over, and if you take issue, file a report.

I can't believe the county settled and that Moron got 200k. All that does it motivate more people to instigate cops into a similar situation.
This is why you don't approach cops doing something else:

http://6abc.com/police-release-bodycam-footage-of-fatal-shooting/3700265/
 

Carson

Sport Bacon
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I just saw the other stuff.

Even if I had never met Carson, I would say the cop in the video acted as he should. You don't interrupt a traffic stop if you are not a part of it. That's just idiotic. Wait until it's over, and if you take issue, file a report.

I can't believe the county settled and that Moron got 200k. All that does it motivate more people to instigate cops into a similar situation.
Raritan Township and the Joint Insurance Fund paid this out. Your tax dollars paid to Hunterdon County in Glen Gardner are safe and sound.